vernard | Freedom has a price but it doesn't keep score

Entry tags:

Freedom has a price but it doesn't keep score

I got an email from a co-worker that is a member of an organization on Emory’s campus that is trying to bring issues of racism to the forefront of the campu’s collective mentality so that they can better develop strategies for dealing with it. She forwarded me this email today:

One of the white members of my TCP group shared this story with us last night. We are thankful and optimistic that she is one of many Emory students who do not share in this new breed of hate and is sharing her voice to protest.

What can we do about it?

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

Unfortunately for her, I decided to respond. I won’t send the full text of my email but basically I said “Nothing. and there shoudln’t be anything that you can do about it.” One of the unfortunately and necessary tenants of a society like ours is that folks should be free to think what they want and to also teach their kids the same thing. You cannot legislate tolerance and love any more than you can legislate morality. Nor should you try to. Its a slippery slope that we really don’t want to even get near.“

So exactly how far should the government/society go to protect itself from this type of thing?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

http://www.livejournal.com/users/reprobayt/330966.html

I think that you're right. If the government steps in and tries to regulate this, then who is to say that down the road, Jewish thoughts or Islamic thoughts or Pagan thoughts...or even Christian thoughts, depending upon who is in power... are fought against and censored? In this situation, what the people can do is to not buy what the girls are selling. Yes, it's sad. Yes, it's digusting. However, we live in a consumer driven market. We also live in a spectacle driven society. What people should be remembering here is Eminem. The more controversy and antagonism that was published and spouted out about Eminem, the more popular he became. He sold more albums; he got more interviews.

The same thing will happen here. The more outraged people become, the more they will talk about it. The more they talk about it, the more interest will be piqued. That will lead to the sale of more albums and more publicity and more people to whom their message of hate and bigotry will reach.

Now, I said all of that to get to your question. If the government steps in here, you're correct. It becomes a slippery slope and very dangerous ground. The government trying to do something about this brings forward all kinds of publicity. You will have the white supremist groups coming out in arms about abuse of free speech. You will have the "equality" groups coming out in arms about how Prussian Blue's version of free speech harms people. And then you'll have the people (like me) who do not agree with the message being sent but DO agree with their right to free speech. It would turn into a media circus. That's what, if not the girls themselves, then certainly their mother, want. And the downside of that is that more and more people would hear what they are talking about. And there are two groups of people you don't have to worry about: the ones who agree with the lyrics and the ones who adamantly disagree with the lyrics. But what about the middle group? As with any issue, it's that group that you have to be wary of.

If people want to know what they can do about this, the answer is simple: education. If they have children, make sure that their children are not buying products like this. If they are exposed to it, explain why what the message the band is sending is hate-filled and hurtful. And there are other ways to educate. But one thing is -- in my opinion -- certain in this situation and it's the fact that the government does *not* need to become involved in this on a speech level because as Americans, it is the mother's right and the girls' right to speak and believe what they do. And for the rest of America, it is their right to not buy what the girls are selling.

The only problem is that most people won't think that way. They will want someone to do something about this and the media frenzy will just grow...

unless it rises to the level of inciting violence directly, it should be untouched. If we legislate that it is wrong for a white person to proclaim that they are proud to be white, we must also legislate against every other group to proclaim that they are proud to be whatever they are. No one could claim to be a proud Soldier, Marine, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Black or anything else. If they want to be fascist, racist, small and fearful of the rest of the world, let them. It's only a matter of time before reality intrudes on their little experiment. I want to be there when it does so I can see them getting fucked in the ass by life.

They're just kids. In a year or two the hormones will hit, they'll need to rebel against mom and dad, and they'll probably notice the hot black guy down the street. Then it's "oooh, time to question the beliefs".

I rerspectfully disagree with you here, V. Emory, as a private institution, has every right to state uncategorically that they are opposed to this sort of thing. Private organizations within the college are also welcome to state their opinion and to educate those around them. The main weapon we have against hateful speech is speech. The hatemongers know this - This is why these girls (and others who hold non-inclusive views) are homeschooled - to shield them from opinions. Should there be a law against homeschooling? Hell no - but it sure gives it a bad name.

To get back to my point, too many of us (and by us I mean our generation, the PC generation) believe that freedom of speech means that every opinion should be heard equally. I say that freedom of speech is the right (and the obligation) to shout down the voices of intolerance and injustice, and to speak constantly and loudly about what I believe to be right - to be a pain in the ass about it to anyone who'll listen. If enough people hear me and join me, the world changes for the better. And Emory has the same obligation.

And for the record, I've heard a couple clips from this album - the girls are HORRIBLE singers.

I'm with V on this one. And Tony.

In the 80s, Orson Scott Card would sometimes hold a Secular Humanist Revival at science fiction conventions he was a guest at. It was a send-up of religious revival meetings - a tent, funeral-parlor fans, the works. Card would act all preacher-man like, all theatrical and booming voice and so forth, getting "amens" and "halleluias" from the crowd... making fun of what was at the time a hot-button issue, namely that fundamentalists were railing against "secular humanism" being taught as a religion in schools.

Relevant point: at the one I went to, Card held up a textbook that some school board somewhere had added to the curriculum, one that the fundamentalists felt was more appropriate than the "secular humanist" books previously used. Someone in the crowd yelled "burn it!" That got some chuckles, but Card drew himself up in his most mock-officious stance and said "There will be no book burnings at *MY* revival, sir!"

That drew applause.

Then he said "No, I'm going to do much worse than burn it... I'm going to READ it!"

That brought the house down.

Emory has the right to say it disagrees. Emory also has the responsibility to not teach their kids to engage in censorship, but in honest debate.... and what an appropriate response would be to those who won't debate honestly.

They don't need to be shouted down. They need to be mocked and ridiculed... and if the volume of the meme happens to drown them out, then so be it.

A-feckin-MEN!

If by "do something about it" they mean "issue a statement," then sure, but other than that there's not much they can reasonably "do." Besides, the type of person who likes that group is going to love to have an opportunity to accuse "leftists" of "censorship."

As awful as that movement is, since they LOVE attention of any kind it's almost best to just starve them of it.

As awful as that movement is, since they LOVE attention of any kind it's almost best to just starve them of it.

A bit late, as the story was on ABC News. And of course, the musical group isn't about promoting the girls, but about using the girls to promote the movement's message. I hope ABC got a nice check for helping them along.

Still, I agree that the best thing to "do" is to ignore 'em. With any luck, the girls will get exposed to saner people as they get older, and may eventually come to question their beliefs before they pass them along to their own children. Probably not, but we can hope, and eventually some generation will shake off their hateful heritage.

After all, historically, bigotry is on the decrease. I think we'll probably see a brief uptick as the Internet makes it easier for these types to find other like-mindless folks, but I don't think the overall trend is going to change.

A bit late, as the story was on ABC News. And of course, the musical group isn't about promoting the girls, but about using the girls to promote the movement's message. I hope ABC got a nice check for helping them along.

Yeah, that was pretty unfortunate.

From my bio:

If you don't agree with the opinions I have, what I believe and/or what I support -- because of brave souls who died before us, you have that right. I will fight beside you to protect it. However, your opinion holds no power here...in simple terms, I don't care.

Here's more from David Neiwert: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/11/when-to-ignore-them.html

They don't need to be shouted down. They need to be mocked and ridiculed

Six of one...

... saves nine?

Actually, I take that back. Passive resistance, the settling back into a chair and making snarky comments from afar, is not enough. The belief that making snide comments is enough implicitly posits that your opinion is a generally held consensus, that common sense is common, that hatred and intolerance is the aberration rather than the norm. Teaching people to hate is EASY. It's a walk in the frickin' park (e.g.: a random page in any history book). Teaching people to love and accept is HARD. (I seem to recall a fairy tale about a fellow who tried, and wound up nailed to a tree.)

Intolerance (pardon the paradox) must NOT be tolerated. In the desire to appear unbiased, the ABC article is part ridicule of these girls and part love letter. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away, either. The only thing that makes me angrier that the hatemongers is those who say that "attention is all they want, ignore them and they'll go away." It's more correct to say that a forum is all they want, and ignoring them GIVES THEM ONE, along with your implicit acceptance that their viewpoint has value.

Anyway, morning rants are the worst - my apologies for it's length and vitriol.

So you'd better strike while they're hot.

Nope. Different.

The difference is they get to have their say first, THEN we point and giggle. Advantages: (1) True freedom of expression (the principle of the thing). (2) More humor to be had. If you actually let'em speak, you give them more rope with which to hang themselves. (3) The speakers don't feel compelled to use less than peaceful means to be heard.

"attention is all they want, ignore them and they'll go away."

Not what I said. Look at the internal inconsistency of that statement.

Give them attention... just not the kind they want. Shout down and ignore are very similar... sit back, relax, contemplate what they're really saying, and then when your turn to speak comes up, proceed to shred them in detail... that's hard, but very very satisfying.

Touche'. THat was not pointed at you, but rather some comments further down. Once I get on a roll, however, I fear I can't stop.

OTOH, to your point, by and large they are not interested in your turn, they deny your right to a turn. Would these individuals be interested in hearing, say, V discourse on the subject of tolerance and right action? The most popular song on the CD is called Victory Day, and it's all about what will happen once the race war they wish to have is won, once the street cleaners are washing the blood of the black people from their streets. If you think that's an exaggeration, Google the lyrics, if you can stomach the results you'll get. There's no rational debate to be had with these people.

It's a simple fact of biology - a mad dog needs to be put down, or the result is further pain and infection.

Did I mention that I can't stop? :) Also, who are you? We seem to share a couple of FOAFs - I'm guessing we just missed each other at Ma Tech.

The Government should be 'hands-off'. Only way to weigh-in on the
opposing side of "Prussian Blue" is to use your own 1st Amendment
rights and Speak Out!

"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me."

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

True, they have no interest in discourse, but they're in the minority. The approach you're advocating is no different than the approach they're advocating, only the definition of mad dog is different.

Now, that said, the idea that they have no interest in letting us talk brings up a pretty obvious solution. Eventually, they will do something physically disruptive. Interrupting polite debate. Blocking a legitimate business. Or something more violent. At that point we can punish them for their violence.

But until and unless they do? We leave them the hell alone. Engaging in active darwinism is a very dangerous thing to do, besides being pretty darned arrogant.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Freedom has a price but it doesn't keep score

A similar view...

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Attention

Re: Attention

no subject

Re: Attention

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject